Rover 200 & 400 Owners Club

I am still having issues with my immobiliser, it keeps losing sync and so I am having to relearn each time, which I find real pain in the BS.

I have looked under the dash above the fuses, but I can't seem to see anything there, or is the alarm an integral part of the ECU.

to get to the 5as you need to unscrew your under dash fuse box (under the steering wheel) and then look above the area the fuse box was and you will see a little black module, hello 5as

Edit:
There is also one behind the centre console attached to the back of the ash tray.

P.S. you won't get many responses on NEC weekend

Many thanks 1234dist, someone else also suggested to look up there, I was told that it is definitely tucked right up there and only way to see it would be if I were to put my head where the pedals are! well above the fuses, but I see some steel round bar going across, for strengthening, and cannot see any thing above the bar, despite having a very powerful LED torch with sunlight like light! must be bloody something wrong with my eyes.

secondly is the other part of this alarm in a brown box like the size of two relays?

I removed my centre console and the radio, just in front of the automatic transmission leaver there is a white box with 4 relays, one of them flashes when the alarm is activated so it does the horn, as it also comes on with the horn button, second one does the headlight flashing, not sure what the other two do so far.

Then you have further two relays yellow colour, not sure what they do. and behind this is the brown double relay size box clipped to part of the car and above that is the internal heating system matrix.

I also figured out if my boot was open and not fully locked, it would mislead one as the alarm will not set or the red alarm light won't flash in the speedo dial. When it is in this state the red LED won't come on or keys won't synchronise.

It also seems if the boot light bulb is blown, this may have some issues with setting or deactivating alarm properly, or sync the key, so today I replaced this boot light bulb, doing so and closing the boot lid properly brought my alarm light back, but as soon as I open one of the doors, the light goes out and the engine is still immobilised.

FOUND IT AT LAST! sigh of relief!

All the while I have been kneeling outside the car and head under the dashboard trying to locate it, but later on I dived in with my head resting on clutch/break pedal position, right as far as it would go and looking up, then I saw it. Got it unscrewed and unplugged and examining it for any burnt tracks or damaged parts, seems all OK so far.


I also need to find out why my central locking is no longer functioning, even if I simulate central locking switch manually.

Haynes manual shows the CL module behind front door card, passenger side , the drivers side has window relays, but when I took the left hand front door card out, absolutely NOTHING there, anyone knows where these relays are.

I also found the brown relays box that is size of double relay, checked wiring colour and it corresponds to MAIN RELAY.

getting there slowly., car is still immobilised, and keyfob will no longer synchronise.

The big brown relay on the passenger side of the centre console is the fuel pump relay.

At some point you get to know this part well as it is a weak point of the car. There are several threads on this forum about it but basically, carry a spare!

Are the microswitches on the door lock mechanism working properly? If they weren't you could end up with something that won't lock or unlock.

IT might also interfere with the immobiliser if it was constantly sending the lock signal to the car.

EDITED with updated observed information and all previous findings were based on assumption due to lack of real information available, and so have been edited out.


ETV, thanks for your question, yes currently the drivers door lock mechanism has a problem where I cannot lock the car by turning the key, if I were to lock it manually, I could not turn the key fully to lock it, it feels jammed, so currently the car cannot be locked manually, the locking button is also jammed and cannot be pushed down to locked position, it had no problem locking up, and unlocking with the remote control key fob; when it worked and was in sync. However, I can use the door key manually to unlock, just as well, imagine if I couldn't do that and the remote fob went out of sync. I could be stranded outside with all 4 doors locked. However I really have to turn the key all the way to left and hold it there whilst lifting the door handle pull to open the door.

The door key still turns a considerable turn in both directions, locking and unlocking to just about operate the barrel switch for the purpose of satisfying 5as Alarm Module. ( to be specific, it tells 5as that door is being closed or opened manually and its function is also important when needing to synchronise remote keyfobs)

I can confirm that barrel switch still operates in both directions. (Contacts close when turned to either side) though it won't turn fully to lock.

Just to remind anyone of my original issues with remote alarm able and disable, my remote fob or fobs stopped responding and when i tried to re- sync to 5as alarm unit, it failed. So not possible to override Alarm and immobiliser, and I am stranded, engine won't turn over, when door is opened Alarm goes off as it should, which it did as it should.

However, after sounding once, it won't resound again on opening or closing doors, just as well, or it would be nuisance. The Red Alarm light blinks but you can open the door and alarm sounder (horn) stays silent, just as well, and when you keep the door open the light goes off altogether. Engine still would not turn over.

Other Observations based on a test jig I rigged up earlier today, to rule out any malfunction with my 5as unit, so a simulating jig was rigged up, with an alarm LED, Sounder LED, locking Led and Unlocking LED, a simulated barrel switch with N/O contacts and a simulated change over switch representing manual key opening switch, as well as one N/O contacts simulating or representing door light switch.

All wired as per pin out data obtained from the Internet, and wired the 5as module accurately, (Without this data, it would have been almost impossible to set up a test rig, or would have been extremely time consuming and could have resulted in a damage to 5as module if connected incorrectly. If anyone is interested I can point you in the right direction but this sort of data should not be available easily due to security in mind)

Managed to sync both sets of keys, with absolute no problems, simulated door locking motors operated as they should, polarity reverses by an on board relay on the 5as module itself, indicated by using two different colour LEDs.

and I happily played around and even hooked up my oscilloscope and observed a 250hz square wave on one of its pins leading to ECU. All seems ok, on this test jig.

I observed when the simulated key is turned, door barrel switch contacts close, it throws 5as alarm module into manual opening state, but this action on its own it will not do anything further to locking or unlocking function, as 5as module is now looking for next action (input) which is another micro switch coupled to mechanical side of door locks, so when the door key is turned further, the locks move in the desired unlocking or locking direction (up or down) and this operates this second micro switch which tells the 5as to either unlock or lock the other 3 doors as well as also aids the door key unlocking, so in reality it would operate all 4 door locking/unlocking motors.

( in real condition when the key is turned further, it is mechanically coupled to another unlocking or locking function and operates a second microswitch, this in turn tells 5as to lock or unlock depending on its current state - i.e. if the car is locked and you press locking button again, nothing would happen, but if you pressed unlocking then unlocking function will perform 5as Alarm module will then send a reverse current to locking motors, on all 4 doors.)

So Manually unlocking is part mechanical turning to operate two separate switches which in turn then allows 5as to send current to locking motors.

So as long as 5as did not have any faults with it or with any of its external wiring, this would result in at least the drivers door to open mechanically if not electrically as the car battery may be weak and and disarm the Alarm. (Alarm could still function even on a weak battery)

If the car battery was down, enough charge to run the alarm but not enough to unlock, then at least mechanically you would be able to open the drivers door entirely by the action of turning the door key as in cars not fitted with any central locking, this would allow one access to gain entry into the car to open your bonnet to access your battery for recharging.

After establishing that I have no faults with my 5as module, I am now looking at an external cause, and found that a wire had snapped inside a door loom as it failed a continuity test, this broken wire is responsible for operating central locking as well as for re-synchronising remote key fobs. So no wonder my keys won't sync for this reason)

I returned 5as from my rig test back into the car, and hooked up a temporary bridge to cover the broken wire, to a lock or unlock micro switch contacts, and tried to sync my fobs, but it failed, all sorts of funny things started to happen, horn blasting in different patterns, and alarm led flashing rapidly, so after it quietened down, I probed further and measured voltage across the barrel switch n/o contacts and it was 6.2v whereas it should have been 12v, so indicating something is not right.

That means there must be another fault as well as that broken wire that I have already bridged outside of the loom, I checked all other doors and boot and bonnet for being fully closed, and still that barrel switch open circuit voltage would not go high to 12v as it should, so far i have not found the cause, on the test jig I checked the o/c voltage was 12v.

I then cropped another wire from the 5as module that goes to this n/o door barrel switch, in case it has gone down to semi-ground, by this I mean the wire may be in contact with ground through some corrosion, moisture, or poor contact but not solid ground as that would give you 0 volts. so i cut this wire out, near the 5as module connector (I can re-solder it later If need be) and effectively isolating it from the rest of the car wiring loom, and I hoped to see 12v coming back, but it did not, so this was a bit disappointing, that means something else is bringing this voltage down to 6.2v, this could be other circuits wired to 5as module, so now it is a question of isolating which one by taking voltage readings at all input pins, most of which should be open circuit to ground so high reading.

This wire in concern is a black/red, and still the 5as module indicated 6.2v and as expected failed to go high to 12v, it will not operate central locking even if your switches and door locks were all fine, need to find the cause of this, this will be for tomorrow now.

So the fault is still at large, I have removed the 5as module and will recheck on my test jig again to rule out any problems within it.

Possible cause can be 5as gone into an unstable condition and latched on in this state due to so called hot swapping, since when I disconnected it from the loom, I had not removed the negative post of my battery, nor did I remove the battery lead of car battery on re connection, so it may well be that there isn't actually anything wrong other than it needs a battery reset function, where battery is disconnected for about 30 seconds should do.

Next episode.........coming soon. (Will keep you informed)

My thanks to everyone who contributed to helping me locate the 5as module and all those who gave me some pointers in the right direction, without which i would have been unable to sort and fault find my Alarm problems,